Joanna Penn's Pilgrimage

Author, podcaster, and creative entrepreneur Joanna Penn is a best-selling and award-winning writer of horror, thrillers, dark fantasy and travel memoirs. She's also taken up going on pilgrimages.

Music: © Barney & Izzi Hardy 

Transcript

Peter This week, we're talking to prolific author and creative entrepreneur Joanna Penn. Now, Jo, you are a best-selling and award-winning writer of horror, thrillers, and dark fantasy and travel memoirs. You're also, of course, a mighty podcaster. You started doing this about 15 years before the rest of us. However, we're not here today to talk about all of that, but the fact that in mid-life, dare I say it, you've taken up going on Pilgrimages, why?

Jo So it's a long story that one because when I was in my teenage years, I'm sure you remember The Pilgrimage came out by Paolo Coelho in the late '80s. It did spark a lot of people wanting to do the Camino at the time, and I was a young Christian back then, and I was like, 'I'm gonna do that pilgrimage one day.' So, it lodged in my mind in my teens.

On the Camino de Santiago, you can start in lots of different places around the south of France, in Spain, or anywhere really. Then walk to Santiago to Compostela, which is in Spain. So essentially it is an ancient pilgrimage the way of St James. You are going to where the bones of the Apostle James are, supposedly, and essentially people have been walking it for thousands of years and it was popular back in the medieval times. Then it dropped off for a while and then it's come back – not just for Christians, but also for people who are looking for something. There was a movie called The Way that came out a couple of decades ago, but was really influential in putting that in people's minds.

So, I had the idea in my head, but then over the years, I'm not a Christian anymore, but I always had that in my mind: one day I will walk that pilgrimage. Lots of things happened in my life, and every time something difficult happened, like I got divorced or lost my job, I thought, 'Now's the time.' I never did it. It was always there. It was always something I wanted to do. Then we all remember that COVID hit. That year, when COVID hit and we couldn't travel, I suddenly thought, 'What if that is it? What if I never have the chance to walk the Camino de Santiago? Have I missed the chance?' Then I got very sick, like many of us, and I thought, 'What if I can't walk? What if I can't do it?' So in my mind, suddenly it became an urgent thing. Like, 'What if I'm going to die and miss out on something I've thought about doing for decades?'

So that was when I said, 'No, I'm going to do it,' and I put it in my calendar. 'I'm going to get better. I am going to do the Camino.' Obviously, because of the couple of years of COVID not travelling, I did two pilgrimages in the UK, the Pilgrim's Way to Canterbury and the St Cuthbert's Way, which we might come back to because it's so different to the Camino. Then I did the Camino, finally, a couple of years after that.

It was one of those things that if anyone's dreaming of a trip that they've always wanted to do and the years pass and the years pass, please do it. That's my overwhelming message.

Felice We've definitely thought about it, and a couple of friends of ours have walked part of it. I think just a bit of Portugal. So we thought we might join them for a bit. I don't think I'd have the strength or courage to do as much as you did.

Jo Oh, there are different routes, I guess we should say that. So I did the Portuguese route from Porto in Portugal, north along the coast. It's the Portuguese coastal route. There's also a Portuguese mid-route, but I did the coastal route north. Some people do Francés, that's the well-known one, but that is six weeks from southern France across northern Spain.

I think the Portuguese route was 15 days instead of six weeks. You can say that is a challenge, but it's not six weeks, which is a real commitment. And then also it's much quieter. So, the first out of the 15 days, 11 days were quiet. Then, if you do the last 100km of the Camino, you get the stamp, the Compostella, so you have to do 100km. The last 100km is really busy, but other than that, it was pretty quiet. So, depending on which route you take, it's a bigger commitment.

Felice Did you do any training before the walk?

Jo Yes, so this is a really big tip. I had never done multi-day walking, certainly not solo, so I did all three of these solo. I had never done that alone. It was five days for the Cuthberts and six days for the Canterbury Pilgrimage, the Pilgrim's Way. They were my first trial runs, but I also walked a lot anyway around Bath, near where you guys live – there are some hills. So, doing some hills is good, but it's nothing major in terms of walking. If you can walk, let's say between 8km and 20km wearing your gear and walking tired and that kind of thing, that helps.

One big thing is that I do weight training and have done that for a while, because one of the biggest issues on the Camino that I saw, was people leaving because of their knees. There are two major things with the knees. One – and you guys are skiers, it's probably similar – is that you need to do training for your muscles, the supporting muscles around your knees, but also using poles, again a bit like skiing. If you use walking poles, that's going to support your knees. So that would be my biggest thing. Although you don't have to be a super athlete. You certainly need to walk and train. Otherwise, you'll have a miserable time. You know what I mean?

Peter Of course. Presumably, you don't want to take the whole kitchen sink with you?

Jo Yes, that would be another tip. Well, there are two things on the Camino: I think people have a romantic idea, I certainly did, but it is an industry. So if you want your bags ported from one place to the next, you can do that. I met quite a lot of people in their seventies who had their bags moved. Also, there's a saying: Your Camino, your way.

There is nothing wrong with having your bag moved from accommodation every night. I decided that I wanted to carry my bag on every single pilgrimage. It was part of my 'rules,' in inverted commas, for myself. I walked every step as well. You can get a taxi.

Peter I think that's cheating.

Jo Exactly. So, what is your definition of cheating? Some people say if you do have bad knees and you really want to do it, get your bag moved, and that will just take off some of the weight. If you are going to carry your pack, then yes, you need to minimise your gear as much as possible. I only learned that really from doing those other two. I took way too much stuff. I was in a lot of pain on those other pilgrimages. So yes, I think there's a lot of practicalities. I know you talk about practicalities in preparation. To have the best experience, do some preparation.

Peter What about blisters? Your feet, of course, looking after your feet is really important.

Jo I thought I'd it nailed with the blisters, because on Pilgrims' Way I managed not to have any blisters. I was like, 'Yes, look at me. I know what I'm doing with all my treatment.' Then on the Camino, I changed my socks twice a day; I was doing all the stuff and taking all the tips. Then, on the Camino one day, I was super hot. There was a lot of sweating. I actually got heat rash that day, it was very bad. Then it went downhill from there. So, in the last six or seven days, the blisters were very bad.

Jo One of the good things about being close to civilisation is that the Camino is not a wilderness walk. It is a cultural walk in that you pass these ancient cathedrals and cities, but there are lots of pharmacies, and there are lots of Camino doctors. So you can see anyone. By the end, I was taking some painkillers and plastering up my feet every day. This is very common. But obviously, that doesn't have to happen, but certainly, with some of the hot weather, a lot of sweat, and all of that kind of thing, I think you have to be prepared for it. So yes, try and avoid it, but it might well happen.

Felice Did you have to carry a lot of water or could you get drinks wherever you went?

Jo I carried two one-litre bottles of water. You can buy it along the way, but I always like to have two. Obviously, that adds to the weight of your pack, but in some places, there are some wooded sections, you're walking up hills, the weather can be different, so I carried two one-litres.

Certainly, with any walk, you should carry two litres of water. The death of Michael Moseley, I think, is probably the biggest thing: a health guy who didn't carry water on a hot day. So, definitely do that, but you can buy stuff along the route. One thing is Portugal and Spain are not particularly good for vegetarians. Definitely not great for vegans. It's mainly jamon (ham) sandwiches along the route. So, if you have specific dietary requirements, you would have to plan a bit more.

Felice What about the terrain? Was it very hilly and mountainous? What sort of thing?

Jo So again, this will be decided by the route you take. So, the Camino Portuguese is mostly reasonably flat because you're coastal most of the way. So you're walking along beaches a lot, boardwalks, some really beautiful coastal, not many people in a lot of places along the Portuguese coast, that northwestern coast, and then into Spain pretty similar for a little bit.

Then there are these steeper wooded sections, as I mentioned. There are certainly no mountains on that route. Whereas if you do the Francés from Saint Jean Pied de Port, you go over the Pyrenees. So this route is much better for flat; you don't need walking boots on this route. Shoes are fine, even the fell-running trainers. I wish I'd even gone one step down. There are not really any places where it's muddy or anything like that. You're not walking on roads; sometimes you are, but mostly on boardwalks or pathways. So I don't go overboard on boots. For example, the St. Cuthbert's Way in the north of England was a hardcore boot walk with more wilderness.

This is where the research on your pilgrimage is so important. If you're doing the Camino or anything else, which route do you want to take? And also which season, because in the summer it can get very hot in different places. In the winter, a lot of the places close, the accommodation, hostels, close. So you want to go in the middle of that. I went in September, which was fine. I think September or October is a good time.

Felice What about navigation? Is it all very well marked?

Jo Yes. So firstly, it is a bit of an industry. So there are markers everywhere, and the different kinds of markers are what makes it quite charming. Sometimes, there's just a big painted arrow. In fact, the Portuguese are interesting because when going northbound from Porto, they are yellow markers, but some people go to the Shrine of Fatima, which is south of Porto. Those are blue markers. In a lot of places, you've got yellow and blue going in opposite directions. In fact, I met a woman on the very first day who was setting off in the wrong direction, following the blue ones. I don't know how she thought she was going north, and this was on the coast; you can see the sea. But you do have to watch out for these markers. There are also the badges and the scallop shell.

In different places, it is quite busy. This was a bit of a shock for me. Again, you think a romantic, solo pilgrimage, like I'd had on my other two, but there are always people passing you. There are groups, there are people singing. It's quite a jolly thing if you want to join in with that kind of thing; again, Your Camino, your way.

I went with Mac's Adventure, they're a great company that helps organise your own walking trips. I booked through them and what they did is they book the accommodation, so I knew where I was staying every night. They also have an app. Obviously, I took a guidebook, and I took maps, physical maps, and a guidebook, but I also had an app for Mac's Adventure. Definitely get Roaming if that's something you need. Then I could see where I was, but there was only once where I just headed off in slightly the wrong direction. It's pretty hard to get lost on the Camino.

Felice So did you get lonely at all, as you were on your own?

Jo I'm an introvert, so I don't really get lonely, but I also wanted to be solo in my accommodation. My book, Pilgrimage, is a bit of a midlife memoir, as you mentioned, and I was in peri-menopause at the time, so I wasn't really sleeping anyway. The last thing I wanted was to be in a bunk room with people snoring, or disturbing people because I was getting up and down and wandering around at night.

So I booked through Mac's Adventure, and they booked the accommodation. You can stay in hostels, and if you want company, then staying in a hostel in a more communal environment is probably a better idea. But then also when you walk out every day, depending on what time of the day you start – I'm more of an early morning person, so I would start quite early, and then you would walk past people going at different paces. Sometimes, you would fall into step with people, chat for a bit, walk along together, sometimes for just ten minutes, sometimes for a few hours.

Sometimes people would say, 'Do you want to come and eat together, have lunch together?' So I'd say it's as communal as you want it to be. There were also lots of groups, different groups from churches or different groups of people who wanted to do it for different reasons. I think depending on who you are and why you're doing it, you can choose how friendly you want it to be.

Peter Did you ever reach a single point where you wanted to give up?

Jo Not really on the Camino because I knew how it felt. So, for my blisters, for example, I know that I need to take the pain, tape them up, and I said, 'I can make it.' So I know I can walk through pain. On the St. Cuthbert's Way, I think that was when I really, really struggled. I was very miserable, and I was a bit lonely. It was pouring with rain; I was in the middle of nowhere. There wasn't even a sheep in sight. It was very hard. So I feel like when I did the Camino, I had done hard. And so I was like, 'No, I'm going to finish.' Also, I had that sense of the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela; you walk into the square, take your selfie with the cathedral, and you're like, 'This is the end.'

I feel it's a sort of metaphor for life challenges in that once you are going to do this, you take day after day, and you just head in that direction, and then you're going to make it. So on the Camino, 'No,' I said, 'I am not stopping. I am going to achieve this goal.' And again, circling back to Memento Mori, remember you will die.

I was like, 'I am so privileged that I get to walk this now. What if I can't walk it next year? What if I never get to achieve that goal?' That just kept driving me forward. If you are feeling like that, people will walk past you, and everyone will be so supportive. Sometimes, people will share poles with people who are suffering, which is why I recommend poles.

People say, 'Oh, I don't need walking poles because I'm strong.' And I say, 'Say that to your knees when you're on day nine, walking steep downhill on slippery, stony ground in the rain.' Just don't take someone else's poles; take your own.

Felice Did you pass through any towns or along near any main roads?

Jo Yes, pilgrimages, in general, start and finish in significant cultural hubs. I highly recommend starting in Porto, which is a wonderful city, amazing wine, obviously. So have your Douro red wine before you leave,  and have a couple of days in Porto if you're just starting out on that route.

Then, along the way, there are some small towns and bigger cities, and then, obviously, Santiago de Compostela is a big city. So you are going from urban spaces, then out into the beaches, countryside, and then back into towns again. So that's a sort of mixed blessing because you get your creature comforts, you can get your coffee.

I had a lot of espressos on the route. You can get the lovely Portuguese croissant with jam on it. Yum. You can get the pastel de nata – custard tarts for people who don't know. That's a benefit.

In terms of main roads, there was barely any walking on the main road. Sometimes you could hear it or sometimes see it, but the boardwalks and the smaller routes were that way. I thought that was definitely a good thing, and it made the practicalities much easier.

Peter Now, we've talked a lot about the physical side. What about the spiritual side of this? You, Jo, were in a pretty bad place when you first thought about doing a pilgrimage. Tell us a bit about that. Presumably, it's the journey, not the arrival, that it's all about?

Jo So, I think when you're feeling untethered, as we all did during COVID, as it went on, it was like, 'Is life ever going to come back?' Also, hormonally, I was depressed, and it was all pretty miserable. What is wonderful about pilgrimage from a practical and spiritual point of view is you are just going, you have boundaries in your life. And if you take one step after another, you're going to get from A to B. And when life feels out of control, if you know that all you have to do is get up and walk and then go back to sleep again and eat, whatever, it's just so simple. So, from a physical point of view, it's also a kind of meditation.

So even if you're not someone who prays, then walking can get your body into a certain state. Then, your mind is almost free to think. So, I also consider myself a spiritual person in that I do think about the deeper aspects of life, and I write that into many of my books, fiction and nonfiction. So, I took myself a list of questions to take on the pilgrimage. Every day I would really think about these questions. One of the things is the memento mori; remember, you will die, so I would look on the route for things that were both temporary and things that were stable as well. So some of these ancient buildings, you're like, 'OK, that's been here for so long, and that's anchoring me.' Yet one of the wonderful things is having a beer and a tapas, and you'd be like, 'OK, I'm just going to enjoy the moment, the moments of drinking this cold beer after my hot walk.' That is a temporal pleasure, but all the better for enjoying it.

So, the spiritual side, for me, was reflecting along the route, also reflecting on different aspects of faith, even though they're not necessarily mine. I think we can all consider things like sacrifice and that kind of thing, even if that isn't a religious tradition we belong to. Also, I love the cultural side. I love the arts and architecture. I took so many photos along the beautiful route.

Felice What about the people you met along the way? Did you talk to people, or just keep to yourself mainly?

Jo: When I felt like talking, I did talk to people, especially sometimes when you're feeling good and striding out. Then you pass someone who is clearly not having a good time, and you might slow down.

I remember one guy on the dunes I was walking, and walking on dunes is quite hard work, to be fair. He was struggling a bit, and I stopped to talk to him. An older guy, Irish. I met so many Irish people, but they weren't Catholic; none of them were Catholic. He said, 'I was brought up Catholic, and I want to do the pilgrimage, but I'm not religious.' I met a lot of older Catholics who were doing it. Some people have done each route – so they do all the different routes of the Camino. I think that was interesting. So I did talk to people. I met all kinds of different people and nationalities and people are always asking where you're from and why you're walking the Camino, and reflecting on that.

Tips about where to find coffee were always good. So I think you can be as friendly as you want to be. But also ask for help if you are walking alone. Obviously, as a woman walking alone, I was careful not to walk in the dark. I was careful with making sure I knew where I was going. That's another reason I wanted to book accommodation. Some people just walk and then find somewhere to sleep, and I'm like, 'Nope, not doing that.' There are things you can put in to keep you safe, but also then ask people if you are worried about anything or struggling.

Felice I know you were writing a book about this and you planned that before you went. How did you do that? Did you take notes or record your thoughts?

Jo When I did the Camino and the other pilgrimages, I thought I was going to write more like a travelogue. You guys are travel writers, so you know how that goes. It was more going to be a day-by-day thing for each route. Then, once I was doing the Camino, it really came to me that this was more of a memoir, and I didn't want to do route guides; there are enough route guides. I wanted it to be more of a transformational journey.

During all of the pilgrimages, I take tons of photos. So, photos both for social media, selfies and beautiful shots of things, but also things for the writing later. Pictures of flowers and pictures of what you ate and pictures of my injuries, which I haven't shared, but it reminded me what day I got this and that and the other, pictures of my gear, pictures that are more practical for writing things up later. I also had an app on my phone. I just use the Things app, but you can use Notes or whatever. I would record brief thoughts or type brief thoughts during the day, 'Heard a bird at this point,' just to keep it in mind.

When I got in at the end of the day, I was knackered. So every morning I would wake up and I would write up my notes from the day before, and then I would also take pictures of those notes, and so they would sync to the Cloud. So, just in case that notebook got lost or whatever, I would actually have my notes along the way. Then when I got home, for all of them, I did day-by-day articles, like blog posts on my site, www.booksandtravel.page. So every single day is recorded that I did soon after, because you know how quickly you forget these things when you return.

Felice Absolutely. Having notes on paper is not very good. I was once on a trip to Rome and left my notebook on the Colosseum, on one of the steps of the Colosseum. Never saw it again.

Jo Oh no, that's why I take pictures, as well, of my notes because these things happen, don't they? And I feel like even if you take pictures, you won't lose them.

Felice How long was the whole journey?

Jo It was 300km for the Camino, and it was 50 or something for the others. So the 300km: some days were really short because the accommodation was booked at specific places along the route. There were some very long days and some very short days, which, when I originally looked at it, I said, 'Oh, that's going to be annoying.' Actually, some days, you really do need a break. My longest days were probably 27km, which was a stretch on some days. You'd start early and finish late afternoon, stopping along the way and resting. Then, some of the short days were eight to ten kilometres. So you could get that done in a couple of hours. You just had to adjust, depending on the day.

Some people don't book accommodation, in order to take time off. Maybe I didn't take any rest days, but some people take rest days in the middle to recover and then carry on. If you're doing some of the longer routes, I think that's probably more appropriate.

Peter So, at the end of this long journey, what did you find out about yourself?

Jo I think over the whole thing, it became a sense of transformation in that I came home, which is interesting, I know you're both travellers. I lived in a lot of different places as a child, and I never really felt like I had a home. It was always this really odd idea for me. Then when I came back from the Camino, it was like something shifted in me. I came home to my husband, and I was like, 'I feel I've come home now.' I feel not that my journeying is done or anything like that, but it almost closed some kind of circle in me that said I always have to be moving, I always have to be walking. But part of pilgrimage is this idea of return when you then think about the effect on your life.

This might seem small to some people, but it's big to me: we adopted two cats. When you commit, obviously, to an animal, then you're committing for time, and you want stability for them. Obviously, children are a lot bigger commitment, but for us, having cats was something I just hadn't done for a really long time because I felt I wasn't ready to settle. So, it did change something in me around that. Reflecting on something that I had thought when I was a teenager to come thirty years later to say, 'I have fulfilled that goal,' was also a really precious thing.

Felice How did you manage to get back to normal life afterwards? It must have been quite a shock.

Jo So, obviously, you were very grateful for not having to walk every day, not having to carry your pack. I think very much taking some time in Santiago de Compostela. Some people were walking in and then leaving that same day, whereas I stayed a couple of nights. One, obviously, then you can recover a bit, but two, it helps you with that transition. So there's a pilgrim's mass in the cathedral every single day. I actually went to that. There's something about it, and they read out all the nationalities of the people who arrived that day. You can also get your Compostela, which is the certificate of how far you've travelled. You obviously look around the city, settle a bit before coming home.

Once I got home, it was very much writing it up. Going through my notes, because I'm sure, as you talked about having a notebook, when you revisit your notes, you realise things that you felt at the time that now you've almost forgotten. So pain, for example, is one of these transitory things, hopefully, for people. The transitory pain of blisters, when you're going through it at the time, can feel very, very sharp and very, very difficult, and when you look back later, you're like, 'OK, and now I can't feel it. My toes are completely fine.' It's learning those lessons and processing those lessons after the facts.

I guess the practical tip for people is don't just jump straight back into your job the day after you get back from a big trip. Try and schedule some extra time to process a bit before you go back into your normal life.

Felice I found your book really interesting because I was expecting a memoir or travel memoir and in fact, it's partly a guidebook as well, because you have resources and lists of equipment. It's really an unusual style.

Peter You also jump from one walk to the other, and you go back and forwards all the time, which I think is a very interesting style.

Jo Thank you. I think this is when we're writing a book; it can be hard to know what kind of style we're doing. Like you, you have guidebooks, and then there's articles and all of this kind of thing. I did struggle to find a way to bring in all my lessons learned, as well as put some stuff in about the practical side of solo walking as a mid-aged woman, which in itself is something that I think more people can relate to, need to do.

I was trying to put that in there as well and assuage the fears that some people have of walking alone. I think there's something around independence and about strength that can really help you, regardless of whatever gender you are. I think there is something about solo walking, regardless of the route, that helps you realise yourself and not rely on other people to do the navigation.

That was a really big thing for me. I actually did a navigation course before I went because I was worried about getting lost. I was worried about not being able to read a map properly. And so that would be another tip for people. 'Look, you can learn all this stuff. There's nothing magical about deciding to do a multi-day walk or whatever your goal is; whatever trip you're planning, you can do it. You just need to plan, and it might take you some time to train for it and get everything in place, but it's definitely possible.'

Peter Well, you certainly tell us how to do it. Every single detail is there.

Felice ...which is great. Was it very different: the three walks, the three pilgrimages? The UK must have been incredibly different – the weather, for a start.

Jo Yes, and that's why I wanted to come back to the St. Cuthbert's Way, because that is from Melrose in Scotland, so this is up in the Borders, and then to Lindisfarne, Holy Island. Probably one of the most spiritual moments of my life was walking across the sands to Lindisfarne. I would absolutely recommend that to people. But yes, that was October in Northumberland. It was freezing; I was freezing. It was raining. It was difficult. I was in pain. That was such a hard walk – super proud of it.

There was one morning, when, I texted my husband; it was 3am, and I was in agony from carrying too big a pack. There was a storm outside. That was when I said, 'Do you realise I could be home by lunchtime if I just leave as soon as I can, get on a bus and get out of here?'

That day was that moment of, 'No, I need to do this,' bang in some painkillers and get out into the storm. So yes, I'm really glad I did it, but that was when I learned the lesson of taking too much stuff. So I think if you want a wilderness walk though, that's St Cuthbert's Way – that is wonderful, it's beautiful, it's more remote, you have to do some more planning.

The Pilgrim's Way from Southwark in London to Canterbury is not very wilderness. It is more nature than the Camino route I did, but each one is different and that would be another tip. So if you want to go on pilgrimage, then have a think about which pilgrimage, which route, what time of year. Then again, if you want to do it on your own, if you want your luggage taken. There are lots of questions that will help you have the best experience that you can.

Peter ...and the way in which you meet other people. I was very interested in the little bit about where you left Southwark, and I think you strayed into a housing estate by mistake and met a young girl.

Jo So that day, as you say, so Southwark in London, if people don't know, this is real urban streets. This is walking in the outskirts of London housing estates. It's a fascinating route, too, incredibly historical. I walked through, I met this young girl or teenager, and she looked at me like, 'What are you doing walking through my estate carrying this backpack?' And she said, 'Oh, what are you doing?' So I talked to her, and she said, 'Oh, I hardly even walk up the stairs in my house.'

It was so interesting because we always think about long-distance walking, like people out in the wilderness, but actually striding through this housing estate, I maybe had more impact on someone's life. It gives you a new perspective because we often don't walk through these areas. Very near, there was a wild orchard, and in England, we have a lot of wild orchards. That land was common ground for centuries and people are allowed to take the apples from this common ground. Then people go and coppice them, and they do all this stuff. I was like, 'Wow, this is really interesting.' Probably, this girl didn't even know the history of where she was. So that was pretty funny.

Felice What about the future? Do you think you might take your husband on a pilgrimage?

Jo He is so not interested. We've done some active stuff together: we cycled through the southwest of India and we've done walking trips together, but I needed to do those solo again, something about midlife. I have considered some of the other pilgrimages, but at the moment, the Gothic cathedral thing has really taken root in my mind. I'm doing a lot of trips to Gothic cathedrals. I'm doing a lot of travel for book research. So earlier this year, I was in Vienna and Nuremberg and I know you have your book from Vienna, your grandmother, wasn't it?

Felice That's right. I wrote a book about my family. Having always been a travel writer, there is obviously travel in the book. I went to all the places to research it. But I wrote a book about my grandmother who escaped the Nazis and came to Britain.

Jo I was in Vienna earlier this year, researching my novel Spear of Destiny. So that's the travel I'm doing at the moment. Actually, as we speak, I'm off to Death Valley in California end of next week to do some book research for a thriller. My pilgrimage time of life finished, doesn't mean I won't come back to it, but there are many new adventures to be had.

Felice Tell us about your book, where people can buy it, because I know you self-published.

Jo Yes, I'm an independent author. Pilgrimage is available in all the usual places, but also I've got loads of resources on my site, www.booksandtravel.page. There's a Pilgrimage Resource Site there with loads of stuff, also links to the book. I also narrate the audiobook. So people, if people like audio, then you might like that. There's also my Books and Travel podcast, which might interest people. I also have lots of fiction at www.jfpenn.com and in all the usual places.

Felice Your podcast, The Creative Penn podcast is how we first came to find you and hear about you. It is the most wonderful podcast for writers. So, if any writers are listening, do listen to The Creative Penn as well.

Jo You can also find me at www.thecreativepenn.com – and that's pen with a double N. I'm also on Instagram @jfpennauthor if people want to see some travel photos.

Peter Jo, we wish you the very best of luck with your travels in the future, wherever they may take you. If you do go back to pilgrimages, where would you go? What's the one you haven't done?

Jo Probably the Via Francigena, which is the one to Rome, or maybe even to Jerusalem, although let's face it, not a great place to travel to at the moment. But thanks for having me today. This has been great.

Felice Thanks for coming on our podcast. That's all for now. If you've enjoyed the show, please share this episode with at least one other person! Do also subscribe on Spotify, i-Tunes or any of the many podcast providers – where you can give us a rating. You can subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or any of the many podcast platforms. You can also find us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. We'd love you to sign up for our regular emails to peter@actionpackedtravel.com. By the way, we're no. 7 in the Top 20 Midlife Travel Podcasts.

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